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81

Mapping / Re: KI113R’s Deathmatch Mapping Competition - Discussion and Review Board

« Last post by swatllama on May 08, 2021, 08:08:55 PM »

in10sity, by fixxxer

Fixxxer came out once again with another type of map he loves making - one for competitive pickup mode gameplay.

First of all, we should appreciate how far Fixxxer has come in his texturing compared to some of his other maps, like crypta, catacombs, and the original conflict for instance. A lot more effort went into picking a cohesive yet diverse set of textures here, and the results show.

I think the lighting falls short however. Internally in some rooms, we have vibrant, descriptive lighting


and then some flat,  boring lighting in many other spots, especially outside.


Now that the mapping issues are out of the way, let's analyze the gameplay.

Here is the layout from a top down perspective.

A lot of the map travels between the inside and outside, so you cannot see everything here. In the top right is the healthboost, and around the top left is one of the green armours. The YA is under about where my crosshair is on that screenshot, and the quad a bit to the left of it, inside a structure. What we can see here is that items are generally pretty well spread out from eachother.

What makes this such a strong layout for competitive 2v2? You're not limited by where you can go in relation to another part of the map. Take these screenshots for example.




There are so many ways you can move around from this one spot. Trying to run from a stacked guy who just got HB? There are 3 levels you can drop down to, and he won't have a sightline on which of the 3 you picked. Then once you drop down, there are just as many paths you can split off to; you can go to the center of the map over to the YA or even wrap around back to where the HB was; you can go into a corner and pick up MG and try to trap him; you can retreat backwards below onto green armour. It's not just that you can move around to so many places, but that each place has a purpose and leads somewhere meaningful (or that would be meaningful with pickups moved around).
I'm not a fan of the quad placement though. It's inside a place that's hard to get to, with only two ways in and out, one of which requires rocket/grenade jumping in, and the other is easily defendable by the team that gets there first.




I would've preferred placing the quad either where the HB is, or here as gorge has it.



Another viable place for quad is here, which would make it the same kind of clusterfuck as hator's YA, but perhaps interesting regardless.



At least, something should go there. And therein lies the issue with how the pickups are placed: While there's an appropriate number of all weapons, health, and items, it feels like they're almost scattered around the map with a lot of empty space. For instance, here, there are the big 3 weapons near to eachother


And then places like here, where the most easily accessibly adjacent weapons are all the situational ones that won't be especially useful in most types of fights.



I'd largely replace the item pickups before running this in a pool.

I would consider this a strong map. The layout is all there, the texturing is all there. The lighting could use some more work, and items could be moved around, but playing it is fun. As it stands in its current form, it probably wouldn't replace any competitive pool maps, but once improvements are made, it would certainly be stronger than at least 3 of the current pool maps. I'll give it a 7/10 for now.

82

Mapping / Re: KI113R’s Deathmatch Mapping Competition - Discussion and Review Board

« Last post by KI113R on May 08, 2021, 07:19:51 PM »

I've been putting off my review of Semiramus because it's absolutely daunting. I can only imagine the actual work to create it. Maybe that's Windeckers style? Daunting, intimidating, overwhelming. Think of the face on Alithia. It's like an intimidating all-seeing thing. Besides that, his other creative works have this same scale to them that is just off-putting. The anticipation and curiosity of what lies further.

This really is that. A huge looming structure overlooks the playable area. It really makes you wonder what's beyond the blocked doors. And although it is set in a cheery beach-side looking resort, it still has this eerieness to it. Making you question things yet again.

It is the very deliberate and also maybe creative interpretation of the rules that had Windecker creating a huge back drop to a map that is not small on its own, but certainly wouldn't feel right without it. Lets take a look.











But hey! Don't get lost on the size. While at first, it may seem perfect, there are still errors. Kind of a lot. Im sure Razgriz will find more, but here are the few I found.

Wrong texture shade used here



and here



and maybe here. I cant tell. If it was on purpose then it doesn't look right.



Also a little missing block here



Lastly, the most obvious and probably infuriating for Windecker, is this misplaced waterfall 





All could be fixed within 5 minutes. Nothing major really.

I'd like to say that I find many of the ceilings to be a bit boring. It's a ceiling so I guess who really cares.





It seems I have to have a little nitpick on every map.

Another complement on the theme is that there is just enough blending to show some age. A little moss buildup on what might be considered the less-traveled areas.



However, this segways me into another peeve of mine similar to correctly rotated wood grain textures. While the moss blending shows some weathering, the map otherwise has perfectly kept architecture. EXCEPT in one spot and that's my issue.



Here it is next to the Health boost. It acts as an access point or escape route for the HB. I've never been a fan of adding damage to a map out of necessity to change the layout. It's like "Oops, this room needs another escape route but I can't do that without a complete redesign of the facing room. Let me just blow a giant hole in the wall here so I don't have to explain the horrible flow.". It's a bit of a Deus Ex Machina and it ruins the immersion. If there were other areas of crumbling brick and rotted wood it would make a little more sense. Consistency is important. I have the same feeling about this random plank.



Two other small things that probably aren't such a big deal is that I am not really happy with this jumppad in the middle of the hallway



Redesigning that would take a bit of thinking. The other side is perfect.

And also I can't help but wish there was a pickup of some sort on top of this platform here.



There are a lot of nice little details. I love the vcolor fades, they are a nice touch. Even on the large-scale items in the backdrop, there is just enough detail to make it look finished and not just like scenery.

The map is fun to play. Not really sure what mode it will lend itself to best at the moment. I don't see any competitive play on this, but that's not a bad thing. I think the majority will love the way it plays and I don't see why it won't be included in regular rotations.

Sorry for all the pictures on that one. There is a lot to show.

Windecker went for the wow factor. It has attention to detail but once again the time limit of the competition definitely showed its effects. It's a fun theme with fun gameplay.

With this being my final review I have updated the original post with my numerical scoring of the maps.

83

Mapping / Re: KI113R%u2019s Deathmatch Mapping Competition - Discussion and Review Board

« Last post by Misan on May 01, 2021, 06:02:32 PM »

Hi there!
I'll also give my five cents regarding cliffside.
Other map reviews will follow.

Cliffside By LURKing

This map has almost everything a deathmatch or ctf map needs. That is some really good Sauerbraten release material here.
I decided to split the review into 4 parts

• Design & Geometry
• Immersion
• Gameplay
• Lighting & Sound

Design & Geometry

One thing I want to point out up front: For a month worth of level design for this competition, the map really looks well designed and balanced. And taking into account you have made one map for ~3 weeks and then decided to work on an entirely new map is pretty astounding.

One thing that definitely was done right on this map was the blendmap. Thumbs up for that!

There are however a few details that would have been nice. That would make this a memorable map. I think given the deadline you have made the best effort to make sure the details that went into the map are highly visible and well placed.
Except for one thing. It is almost a shame that the thing that really stands out on the map is so well hidden - and that is the inside of the chapel/church building.


The church is unfortunately a dead end (with a purpose, more to that later), so you don't end up there naturally, only to take a risk to grab the healthboost. Other than that, it is a really well designed place.

In any map, I look for a specific landmark that intuitively makes my subconscious know: "ah, here is where I am". I just noticed that the churches look different, so that is a good way to differentiate bases besides color.
While every building is correctly marked in the team color, red and blue, and the flags also show you which way the enemy is, I feel that something is missing.

Immersion

I feel like I'm in greece. That part is well made!

The environment around the playable map would have been the perfect place to remind the player where they are.
Maybe a little temple on the top of the mountain or a summit cross would have helped to make one of the sides (red/blue) really stand out.
Or a tiny fishers house at the beach, a boat in the distance (like Windecker did with Semiramus)
But there is one thing that I really like of this map: Nobody has done a greek style map before, at least not in that outstanding quality!

For a theme like that, a tiny bit more verticality would have helped to make it more interesting, as it is known for the typical greek islands. At least there are the roofs.
Overall you have done a good job on making it good looking.
There are other places that could have needed details as well. The rooms are all looking really bland. Maybe paintings, plants or bookshelves would give it a bit more diversity. Compared to the very detailed map you made previously (the office), it feels like these rooms were given the least love.


One last thing regarding the beach: Maybe a fishing place or a storage depot would give the map a bit more diversity compared to the purely stone buildings.
There is one negative thing that is making my heart as level designer bleed. Something that would have been an easy fix: The suddenly cut off ocean.
Making a bigger map that fades into the fog is a no brainer. You get these awful cutoffs and graphics bugs with Sauerbraten otherwise:



Gameplay

The first thing I did, when I was loading the map, was to explore the beach. Dang - I'm dead. There is nothing much that points out that the beach is a no-no for players. Making it a bit deeper would have shown the player that he could die from depth. Otherwise the little place where you can stand barely makes sense.
I would probably have made it dent out or give a little pillar to stand on to place another hard to reach goodie. Something like this:


Or this to help the flow of the map.


Like any good CTF map, it offers different paths that allow for a quick grab (middle lane), sneaky stealth path (bottom lane) and a mix of both with the top lane.
With some of the goodies being on the roofs, you have given a good balance between too open (dangerous for the player) and bonus for taking the risk.
Other very good examples of that balance can be found with the healthboosts as part of a dead end (if somebody sneaks up, you could have trouble getting out again). Or with the quaddamage being hard to reach, giving other players enough time to stop you. But once you are up there, you have an open space to hit almost anything that moves on that map. I couldn't come up with a better place for the quad than that!

I really like the fountain that you even gave a purpose: they provide health.
There are little windows that you placed grenades in front of, that intuitively give the player an idea: "hey, I can spam grenades in there to stop the enemy" I like that thinking!
Sniper rifles go on roofs - that is also a good choice
All the other pickups are fine. There is enough health.
The windows feel too little sometimes. Maybe a door would be better for entry nearby the flag.

Lighting & Sound

It is quick and dirty but it works.
In my opinion, the light inside the houses could be a bit more warm (orange/red).
Original:
My change:

All the lights except for the church are set to maximum white (255, 255, 255). Which makes it look a bit artificial (given that it is a modern map, it is almost okay)
But that rusty warm look would give these rooms a bit more

I am a bit disappointed by the glass lamps inside the buildings. Considering that even though the map looks pretty medieval or old, there are park benches that give it a modern touch. So it almost justifies the modern lamps. But they still look odd, with no real light source visible in the middle



Summary
----

I'll post a ranking of my favorite maps once I'm done rating all maps.

84

Mapping / Re: KI113R’s Deathmatch Mapping Competition - Discussion and Review Board

« Last post by KI113R on May 01, 2021, 05:40:35 PM »

WaterCave is an ambitiously large, mostly terrain map from LR7.

Still within the limits of a size 10 map and originally larger before I reminded him that size 10 was the limit. Is going this big going to pay off?



Doing terrain in Sauer is notoriously tedious and difficult to master. With only a few, the likes of Misan, Nieb and Redon able to master it and make it look easy. While yes, there is a tool to make that a bit easier, that tool has limits and you won't find any of the masters using it. Unfortunately, LR7 has found many of the limits that height mapping has. Squared off transitions, broken and high tension cubes, varying grid powers, jagged edges and so on. Some of these issues can be solved with a little manual labor when using height map sparingly. This map does not use height map sparingly and any issues that could have been corrected end up taking more time in the end than just creating terrain cube by cube.

Here is one such example of the kind of errors that exist throughout the map because of the heavy reliance on height mapping.



Now not every map needs to have buttery smooth terrain like Gorge or OW. The jagged edges of the map could be attributed to an artistic choice for a more natural-looking stone. However, I would argue that there is still nothing quite natural about it. There are ways to make a natural, jagged-looking stone without such hash and pointy geometry. Not too common in Sauer but it has been done before successfully.

The best place to show the unnatural look to it is at the mouth of the cave.



Outside of that, it's even a bit difficult to consider the map "finished" with as many completely untouched or missing cubes that there are.











At some point I have to stop pointing out issues. There are light errors, even with only 12 lights. There are 3 health boosts, 3 quad damages and only 2 bases. There are floating map models. There are theme inconsistencies and more. To show examples for all of them would be overkill at this stage.

I think that I have to consider this map unfinished. LR7's vision here is better suited as an artistic concept map. Even then it is a long way from being done. There is a lot that still needs to be done and fixed. I give him credit for working hard to turn in something at all when so many others didn't. However, the choice to create something so large and with mostly terrain, and using outdated editing techniques did not pay off.

It is not my goal to crush this map with this review. Lr7 has a great eye for things. It's just possible that a timed competition with its rules was not a great setting for this creation. I think this could even be expanded on with more time to an interesting race map or art piece.

85

Mapping / Re: KI113R’s Deathmatch Mapping Competition - Discussion and Review Board

« Last post by KI113R on April 26, 2021, 10:06:56 PM »

And now Cliffside by LurKing



That's exactly what it is too. A Lurking map. Like Zamak and his Office map prior, He has the ability to create very defined scenes. You know what it is and where you are but he leaves just enough to the imagination so that you can still build a world around his map. All the details are there in the forefront with simplicity as the backdrop to let your imagination run away.









That doesn't mean that there aren't still areas where it feels a bit restrictive for gameplay. The map has a fair share of narrow walkways and small rooms that could have benefitted overall from being just a bit bigger.

Like here for example, a low ceiling with a narrow staircase. Maybe a ladder would have been better?



Clipping and no clipping is done pretty well.



There is a small issue here by the flags where you can get stuck easily that should be fixed.



And yes I did say flags. This is a mirrored ctf map, excluding the two different church designs. In a way I see this as a bit of a cop out. It's already small, and now also mirrored. Just because it's a ctf map doesn't mean that it wont get judged on other aspects of gameplay. Like the fact that there are two health boosts. One in each church and one quad damage in the center of the map.



On a map of this size it would have been a better decision to forgo the quad damage altogether and instead place a single heathboost in its place.

The rest of the placements seem decent enough and I cant really offer too much direction on those.

There are very few errors in this map. I contribute this mainly to the small size and mirroring. Though Lurking does have a detailed eye that no doubt helped make it what it is.

One that issue that is of controversy is the waterline. Even with what was clearly a conscious decision to manage time, there are ways to make this atrocity look better.



Speaking of atrocities. This is an awful circle.



With those two things out of the way I will move on to what is likely just nitpicking. I do not like these lights.



Of all the details Lurking is capable of, these seem so lazy and rushed.

With a map so seemingly free of texture errors I set out to find one. And that's all I found. ONE. If you can even call it that.



The selected area here should probably be the yellow brick. It's hardly noticeable though.

That brings me into something I really appreciate about the map. Which is the nice choice of red and yellow building accents to compliment the red and blue of the two opposing sides.

Lastly. As I mentioned before the maps is just a bit on the small side. With a little expansion, it could be a lot more interesting and fun. One such way to improve on the fun would be to make the flags a little easier to get.

Lurking did add some clever climable details here to get in from the side.



But without that cumbersome approach, there is only one real direction to attack from. Which makes defending too easy.

A good way to add some variation would be to allow flag running across the rooftops. You can get on top of the roofs now but then from there they only lead back down and funnel you to the same points of attack.

I think some pergolas or something on top of these three buildings here would allow travel across the map via roof.



I'll call that quits for Lurkings map Cliffside. Beautiful and mostly without editing errors, it still leaves some to be desired. A map made with time-saving decisions could benefit with just a little more time shown.

86

Mapping / Re: KI113R’s Deathmatch Mapping Competition - Discussion and Review Board

« Last post by KI113R on April 24, 2021, 07:17:22 PM »

I am going to start with Fixxxers map first since I know Razgriz started with Windeckers map first.

Let's start right off with the bad and work our way into the good.

First thing we have is a texture error. oops! nothing major though, easily fixed in post.



Besides that there aren't any glaring texture mistakes besides what I would consider to be personal preferences. More on those in a minute.

If we compare this map to previous Fixxer staples I've got to say that it's actually very unique. And not something I think I would have picked out as a fixxxer map when next to his other maps. Even his map Deathx made immediately prior to this. What makes it so different you ask? The textures! What a breath of fresh air and a bold step out of Fixxxers comfort zone. Definitely an attempt by fixxxer at improving his skills that I think paid off big time.

While the map overall does still have a drab grey tone to it, the greenery helps break it up. Along with a couple of different light sources that vary in design enough to keep the textures from getting too boring.

That doesn't mean that there aren't still areas with boring, repetitive textures. Like for example this room



Just a little too much of those two marble textures with no real source of light.

I am also not too excited about the use of these egypt bricks.



They don't quite fit the theme. I think I would have preferred the same yellowish brick as the building behind it along with some other design elements to help break it up. But again, maybe thats just personal preference.

One thing I also think fixxxer could do better is texture transitions. A lot of these textures are butted right up against each other. Some areas can be gotten away with but areas like this can be a bit hard to explain in reality.



The red brick right up against the yellow brick. Hmmmm.

Here is an example of where he did it right.



The metal trim strip separating the wood and the brick is a nice touch.

V commands are very useful for making wood textures more believable. It's a big peeve of mine and since I know I mentioned this to fixxxer prior, he gets graded on it



There are a lot of unnatural, conflicting wood grains here that one command can easily fix to make it much more believable.

Here is how it maybe should look with Vrotate 1



Aside from textures we can move onto geometry. And there is not much bad to say about that. Fixxxer doesn't have a real problem with geometry it seems. Aside from the ugly ladders that plague his maps. Those need work. However, let's step aside from the negatives and appreciate some of the beautiful scenes he has created.













Some awesome architecture going on there and I have nothing but praises to sing about that and the little details he used to fill the map with.

I think details like this are new to him.



Perhaps before that would have just been a blank wall. But now I see a feature that reminds me of something Misan would make. It really adds character to the map.

Now I would like to move onto what little I can contribute with regards to gameplay. Which surprisingly is where my two biggest problems with the map lie.

First, the clipping is a bit too much in some areas.

Like a couple of these entry ways.



The worst spot is this wall



Third person view of me right up against the clip.



I am nowhere near the wall. It's just a bit awkward.

By far though my biggest issue with the map is that it feels unfinished. There is a large portion of the map that is gated off but has many of it's details done already.







Many of the gated entrances feel like dead ends that could have led right into this cohesive, existing layout.





And I think opening this area would aid in making the quad damage area much better by adding another way in over by the monster map model.



That's it for my review of In10sity by Fixxxer. A breath of fresh air that shows his constant improvement.

Ill provide an actual number rating once I write the other reviews.

87

Mapping / Re: KI113R’s Deathmatch Mapping Competition - Discussion and Review Board

« Last post by KI113R on April 22, 2021, 01:35:11 PM »

LR7 did finish in time, he just had some packaging issues that we had to get corrected. His map is now linked for download as well.

Here are some things that the community is already saying about these maps, including some of the competitors themselves.

Jomra — 04/19/2021

holy moly windecker

BATMAN — 04/19/2021

its gr8 map windecker!

p1x — 04/19/2021

wow, the cliffside map from the mapping competition has some seriously hard-to-reach flags

nopnotme — 04/19/2021

Windecker has a really well put-together map and great design. The backdrop is a great addition to the map but might take frame tolls on lower end pc's
Fixxxer has a good layout and approach but i think there are some sections that feel rushed, like the empty rooms with circle window sections and bars , maybe due to time restraint but has more potential then as-is.

Lurk did a good job here with a nice ocean side map, I think my only complaint here is that with a default size 10 you only used 1/4 of it and there is no geometry border around the water which creates a glitch'y water bug

Jomra — 04/20/2021

Regarding Lurk, I like the creative decision of having the water cut off

RaZgRiZ — 04/19/2021

early tl;dr is, impressive work, but unless he was running out of time and had to rush it out, jake (Windecker) needs QC chasing after him :smile:

TristamK — 04/19/2021

Nice map Lurk. Looks sweet. I would expand the boundaries of the map to avoid such graphical artifacts. Under the terms of the contest, this could be done

Windecker — 04/19/2021

show me the oops! there are gonna be a few. I kinda procrastinated and then slaved away trying to get done in time. D;

Windecker — 04/21/2021

I feel okay. I really like cliffside.

Fixxxer — 04/21/2021

the truth is that i think i did well and i am proud of myself for what i made... like expressed before killer, i am just happy to be in the tournament and share in the experience, i feel i have come far already but dude i have so much more to learn before i can get to real map making peoples level
i can tell you that i feel a lot better about in10sety then what i did with deathx, i really focused on the textures and made sure not to have a bland map and give people a clear indication of where they are on the map at any given time, i am very ecstatic about my entry and regret nothing :slight_smile:

LurKing — 04/21/2021

I feel pretty good, already fixed mistakes people were complaining about
From the chandelier in the red church to the "Weird-looking" sea
But honestly, I knew Windecker would win the moment I saw that temple
But I'm not complaining, not at all, the contest was a lot of fun and I'm happy for him

Do you think you know who will win based on the community chatter? Nothing is set in stone yet. The judges are still deliberating and will post some in depth reviews that should clearly explain their pick for the winner.

88

Mapping / Re: KI113R’s Deathmatch Mapping Competition - Discussion and Review Board

« Last post by KI113R on April 19, 2021, 03:29:03 PM »

The competition has come to an end. I have modified the initial post with links to the completed maps.

The judges will now review them. Please also feel free to download them and give your insights.

I think it could be easy to be discouraged by the number of DNFs but we did get 3 amazing maps to review and deliberation will be tough. We can also be encouraged to know that most of these competitors did at least start maps and I think many of them plan to finish, so keep an eye out for those. That goal of the competition was at least a success. Getting mappers to start some new layouts.

Fixxxer and Lurking both completed 2 maps in the allotted time. Both of them decided to submit the later attempt. Both maps you have not yet seen screenshots of so it will be a great surprise for many of you.

Check back to see our reviews as they go up and find out who will win $25. All three competitors who turned in a completed map will also get to choose one free AAA game from Razgriz's backlog of unclaimed games.

89

Mapping / Re: KI113R’s Deathmatch Mapping Competition - Discussion and Review Board

« Last post by KI113R on April 08, 2021, 06:20:23 PM »

Sadly there will be no more progress to report of Getridou as he has asked to be excluded from the competition. The map was really looking great and I am sure many of us look forward to seeing it once it is complete anyways.

In other news, Nieb has officially joined Shuzo and is working to help complete his map on time. Reportedly contributing custom textures and map models which will no doubt be essential in representing the world they are trying to create. Shuzo says "I finished all of the playable terrain btw. working on shaping the rest of the cavern now but there's been good progress". And I can confirm. While I didn't have any of the custom textures or models yet, what could be seen of the terrain looked very complete and polished.

Normally when the competitors send me images to post I choose only a few to highlight but with Lurkings map there is so much many little details that I can not choose only a couple. They all show something really unique. So here are 5 of them











Our closest look at a complete entry thus far. Just look at those little cups stacked in the break room!

I don't want to count him down and out yet but WohSiesta is understandably busy with life outside Sauer as many of us are. There is still a little progress to report from him though.

 



Even without a complete map now, we will definitely appreciate the new assets he worked so hard to create. That alone deserves merit.

Mmeaninglessnamee has some layout taking shape after he got done finalizing his ideas on paper.





Glad to have something to report from him.

And LR7 did stream his map progress as he mentioned above. Be sure to check it out.

That's all I have for this update. 2 more weekends to go. I took a guess that at this point it looks like only 4 maps will be completed. To which Tristam replied "Seems he underestimates people who do everything at the last moment". Indeed, anything can happen and I hope I am wrong.

90

Mapping / Re: KI113R’s Deathmatch Mapping Competition - Discussion and Review Board

« Last post by LR7 on March 31, 2021, 06:32:54 AM »

Man its been awhile since I've logged on this side [8.0]

So far I've gotten a few details changed and some adjustments will be made like fitting the map I made on a 12 into a 10 of my map some how even if I've been real busy with life outside of Sauer [X.x]

Some of you guys are ahead of me in most aspects [8_0]

Also this Friday around 7PM PST I'll be Streaming a portion of the process on either https://www.twitch.tv/landriders7th or https://www.youtube.com/c/LandRiders7th

So maybe KI113R can keep an eye on my progress alittle better [>.0]/

And no i'm not using the Omegle-Stream map this time around [<~<]/

Til then I'll keep you guys posted on Discord [^~^]/