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71
Moviemakers' Corner / Questions about the engine.
« Last post by Alxa on July 20, 2021, 02:29:00 PM »
Hi!

I’m a new player and i wanted to ask you guys about commands that could help me make frag videos (This is our clan Youtube page: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCqeB0k8z-RH3hBTGS_MCFhA).

I don’t know what kind of tools does the engine offers but I would like a command to modify the speed of demos and a command to rewind a demo. Is it doable?

Thanks in advance.

--edit--
What is the requeriments for the Forum Avatar? I can't change mine no matter which resolution or size i try.
72
General Chat / New player with some questions
« Last post by Alxa on July 20, 2021, 02:14:09 PM »
Hi guys!

I’m new on this game and I’m loving it :D

I play under the “Alxa >Koo$<” nickname (Koos is our clan. Our Youtube Channel: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCqeB0k8z-RH3hBTGS_MCFhA). I’m interested in the dueling community and I have a couple of questions:

1.   Which are the most played duel maps?
2.   Is there a player ranking or competitive ladder?
3.   Are there texture packs? What about better (or more) player models?
4.   Any other useful tip you can give to a newbie? :s

Thanks in advance!
 
73
I want to say that the majority may have pegged Windecker as the sure winner of this competition with his impressive visuals but as it turns out a consistent hand and clear gameplay purpose really impressed the judges the most, leading Lurking to the top.

I want to thank everyone for participating and keeping up with this competition and ask that you check back for a future competition with another cash prize.
74
Cliffside

This map is beautiful, in a different way from Semiramus. While semiramus had a majestic vibe about it, Cliffside has a feeling of visiting some small European town with a bunch of quaint shops, old people, and lacking in brothels despite having a rich religious history. The lighting isn't intense in any part, but it just works. It's like Nieb's outdoor lighting, but more subdued from his typically bright sun.



This beach is a very cute addition, although it kills you.


But this is not a deathmatch map at all. It's a symmetric CTF map, which may also be fun for regen capture.

The texturing looks nice. It's very well themed, and none of them look out of place.


The attention to detail in places that people probably won't go in very often, such as the church, is really good too, with the altar, cross, and even the circular arrangement of candles up top.




My main criticism of this map is that everything feels scaled way too small. It needs to go up 1.5x or even 2x, or around there.

I'd give this map an 8/10 since I think the only work that really needs to be done to make it a very fun public iCTF map is that it needs scaling.
75
From Misan -

Quote
Alright.. I postponed it long enough.
Here is my rating:
Criteria's:
gameplay: how well designed is the playable area and balance of pickups + their implied strategy.
immersion: how well do I feel the atmosphere, age, theme and surroundings
aesthetics: how well shaped are the parts in general? bug-free and appealing details.
----
map, total rating, (gameplay, immersion, aesthetics)
Cliffside: 8/10 (9, 7, 7)
Semiramus: 7/10 (5, 10, 7)
In10sity:  7/10 (7, 7, 8)
WaterCave: 3/10 (1, 4, 5)
Although Semiramus looks really good, the gameplay leaves a lot to ask for in my opinion, positioning it closely behind Cliffside.
In10sity is a robust DM map, but the theming feels a bit mixed to me. I am not really sure if I am in a factory, an urban city, a park or all of the above. Also there are barely landmarks, making orientation inside the labyrinth a little tricky and it takes a lot of getting used to.
WaterCave is obviously made with love, but lacks the thorough experience to really contend with the rest of the masterpieces that were delivered. Terrain is hard, especially for a beginner. Buildings look fine though. In terms of gameplay, I can only recommend to test this with ~8 bots and see if it is fun to play. The lack of reachable ammo, the very open map makes it hard to play
76
Semiramus

I think Razgriz already went over some of the mapping issues with this, so I'll table more mention of any I would notice. Let's instead marvel at how pretty the map is.





So, how does it play? I'll admit, I didn't bother testing it - the layout, being nearly symmetric, doesn't lend itself to competitive ffa or teamplay for 2v2/3v3. The flow to get around to items isn't exactly fluid from every spot, as some paths you have to travel are forcing. By that, I mean that you can get very close geometrically to a place, but you suddenly cannot actually get there. Take this for example:

From this POV, you can't get up to that ledge - I forget what's up there, but it's some item or weapons. From that ledge, you cant' dget down to here. This itself is not a problem, but there's no quick way to traverse between the two. If this were a rare case, it would be fine, but there are more such instances.


Many of the weapons seem placed fairly arbitrarily. The HB and YA are put in gimmicky spots that are hard to access and you have to jump across open water to get to - fine for a map that'll be played for public deathmatch (which doesn't really have a scene in Sauer), but not something I'd want to see much of in a competitive map.



The map is remarkably beautiful. I would like to see bases put in intelligent positions so it can be played for regen capture, although I'm not a huge fan of mostly-symmetric regen maps either. As for a deathmatch map specifically, I'm not sure it holds up to what I would envision as an ideal gameplay map for DM.

Compositing the looks, item placement, and what I suspect the playability to be, I would give semiramus a solid 6/10 of a map.


77
Apologies everyone for the delay in my ratings. I had been preoccupied with life matters and it was constantly being pushed back. Thankfully, KI113R did the hard part of taking pictures of all the maps in his review so this saved me quite a bit of effort.

I shall be concise in what I perceive as a fault in a submission, and know that my focus falls on the looks/feeling of a map, and its issues. I'm not one for a lot of words unless I'm there in person with the mapper in question to provide feedback so hopefully no one's offended :P

So without further ado:


Semiramus by Windecker

A novel idea with a theme that hasn't been attempted before, with a scale that is awe-inspiring, even if most of the scenery is out of bounds.
Jumping in you'll definitely be overwhelmed by the absolutely humongous temple that lies beyond you, on a scale never before attempted unless we count the rpg maps.
Whether it's the compact maps or the larger scale ones, I've always been blown away, honestly. I'd say I'm a fan, do you have an OnlyFans?
Say, when will you finish that factory map with the green lava sludge? The detail in it was crazy for its time. Oh I'm sidetracked, back to business.

There exist several rough spots to consider despite all the eye candy. For example:

A. Inadequate structural support to seemingly heavier parts of the temple architecture.
B. Mistextured parts that slipped the creator's view, but are entirely within the map bounds to be visible.
C. Misaligned textures at various spots, though some of them are excused (blue vcolor brick walls, >pain<).
D. Early cutoff of blendmaps on floor surfaces, or blendmap on surfaces where it shouldn't exist.
E. Clipping of models through geometry (vegetation) or floating off the ground (palm trees).
G. Seemingly improper use of artificial vcolor shading at places -- this i'm uncertain of.
H. Fog distance too short to hide map boundaries, but also too much as it hides the main attaction, the temple.
I. Background architecture appears to be waaay too white compared to the playable area, unnaturally so.
J. Misaligned sunlight as shadows not line up with the skybox, and the lightprecision is not well adjusted for scale.
K. While minor, there exist a few holes inside of walls, and some cornerwork appears to have mistakes/holes visible.

These issues aside, many of which were due to time constraints, it is hands-down the best looking submission of the bunch in terms of looks.
Jake does not disappoint, year after year, dude's got talent. Despite the points I made above, big points for the blending attempts and the grand scale.
Oh and also for using sounds in general. A map can look good, but if it doesn't sound good, something's definitely missing.

For the general ratings:

Looks: 1st place
Atmosphere: 1st place
Issues: 3rd place


Cliffside by LURking

An original, although tiny, ctf map themed after greek island architecture. Fair bit of careful work and good looks that'd definitely make release.
I'm actually surprised by his growth. I remember some of his earlier map attemps. Boxy, weird, overly detailed spots, rough spot that were meant to be round, clipping that'd make a 10-year-old cry..
Man how time flies, I feel like I'm watching my own child grow and learn and become better every day. Brings a tear to my eye. No wait, that's the water mat against the skybox.
AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAARGH

There are only minor rough spots to talk about (except that big one), being the cleanest map of the bunch:

A. Lighting is blue and harsh, making the white buildings pop in a weird way that tires the eyes. Making the sunlight yellow and increasing intensity is much better.
B. Some models clip in each other and thus do not get lit properly, like the weeds in the planted palm trees.
C. Minor misaligned textures on the rockfaces due to being pushed the wrong way around and one on a building trim as KI113R pointed out.
D. Map could have utilized the extra room on the sides to hide the water boundary to a degree, potentially through means a river-like beach? I'd accept a larger scale map if it's to hide the boundary well.
E. The sounds are a bit repetitive and not entirely fitting of the setting. The sea is too far to be heard unless you die over there typically, and the bird kind of.. 90's sounding.
F. The rock models do not really fit here. I do appreciate you using them, but they stick out like sore thumbs -- literally.

Despite these issues, I can tell that he paid quite a bit of attention to eliminate most of them prior to submitting his latest work.
All my time nagging him about stuff in his other maps and showing him how to hunt for "bugs" seems to have helped quite a bit. Keeping a clean map as you go means less of a mess to clean later.
He has the drive to try some off-brand ideas with his maps which I like. I recommend experimenting with lighting more to create neat lightscapes and contrast, you can still up your game considerably.

For the general ratings:

Looks: 2nd place
Atmosphere: 2nd place
Issues: 1st place


in10sity by Fixxxer

Missed your chance to name it in10city to make a pun off your theme, docking points! I have mixxxed feelings about this one. Knowing some of his previous work,
it is quite clear that he is experimenting and trying to expand his work into more complex themes. A cityscape is one tough nut to pull off.

From the look of things, the layout itself feels inspired by Quake, thought it might just be me. Ledges are very tall and wide, the architecture dwarfing the player.
Unfortunately, this theme overwhelmed Fixxxer from the looks of it, because it's kind of a mess. It doesn't appear he had a solid plan for what kind of city theme
to go for, be it futuristic, simply modern, rustic, steampunk, middle-ages or whatever. The texturework is a mishmash of a little bit of everything and it shows.

A. No coherent city theme to immerse yourself in, it's a loose pile of.. bricks, I suppose.
B. Lighting is a weakpoint as well, with strong, harsh lights at points and plain ambience otherwise. The mix of two is not harmonious.
C. Clipping is a bit all over the place and was not thoroughly tested, possibly due to time constraints.
D. A part of the map is basically blocked off with iron bars, despite being entirely playable and not optimized as background scenery.
E. No sounds whatsoever, leaving the map eeriely quiet.
G. Mixed model assets, some of which are practically ancient from the first days of sauer. Some clip in geometry, others are spammed and lit improperly.
H. Texturing cohesion is similarly non-existent, where one part of a wall is metal and the other brick, or a pillar made of crushed cement. More textures isn't more better.
I. No backscene optimization for non-accessible areas. Clip is likewise missing at spots, meaning one could potentially glitch in an out of bounds area.

Phew. Definitely a good effort from Fixxxer, and I urge him to keep trying to become better. Your layouts are liked by people, but you definitely need some assistance to get your themes going the right direction.
Work hard and be critical with yourself when you want to up the quality of your work further. If you find something doesn't feel right, think of why that is, and then consider alternatives.
You could even get other people, like in this case, to run around and point out what they feel is weird to them. If you think it makes sense, remember in your heart these points you didn't consider before.
This way you will grow cynical like me and never finish anything in time ever! :D You're welcome!

As for the ratings now:

Looks: 3rd place.
Atmosphere: 4th place.
Issues: 3rd place.


WaterCave by LR7

Oh man. Where to even start. I'll get to the main point first.

Looks: 4th place
Atmosphere: 3rd place
Issues: 4th place

This submission is the definition of a work in progress, an alpha. The premise of the map is something akin to a deep crater with temple entrances on the rock faces.
As pointed by others, most of the work on the terrain, and there is MOSTLY terrain, was done through heightmapping. It's a shitty tool. You will only want to use it for basic groundwork.
Preferably for mostly flat surfaces, using the noise tool and then smoothening out. If you want steeper angles, do it all manually. The terrain is rough, broken at places, unfinished at others.
The choice of rock texture likely also hid quite a lot of mistakes. Should have either picked a lighter rock texture, or changed outline colors, though that's the least of my concerns.

The idea is ambitious and grand, but unfortunately nowhere near completion. Everything looks like a rough mockup, and plays like it too. Lighting is pretty much missing. No sounds either. Clipping is similarly pointless at this point of development, before most of the geometry has had a chance to be polished. Points for the blending attempt, though that's more of an end-game concern.

Well.. I can't give much constructive criticism on this when it's this early in its development cycle. It's pretty much the definition of a participation award.
Better luck next time ^_^



For whoever stuck around reading my old man opinions, congratulations, you've thus lost a part of your soul to me and are a little less of a human as a result.
The final ratings from myself are as follows:

1st place: Semiramus : 8.5 overall
2nd place: Cliffside : 7.5 overall
3rd place: in10sity : 5 overall
"I was here too!" award: WaterCave : there was an effort of 2 overall

Do note that my scoring has no basis on gameplay and fluidity, but rather is hard-based on how good-looking a map is, as well as polish (or lack thereof) put into it prior to submission.
78
in10sity, by fixxxer

Fixxxer came out once again with another type of map he loves making - one for competitive pickup mode gameplay.

First of all, we should appreciate how far Fixxxer has come in his texturing compared to some of his other maps, like crypta, catacombs, and the original conflict for instance. A lot more effort went into picking a cohesive yet diverse set of textures here, and the results show.

I think the lighting falls short however. Internally in some rooms, we have vibrant, descriptive lighting


and then some flat,  boring lighting in many other spots, especially outside.


Now that the mapping issues are out of the way, let's analyze the gameplay.

Here is the layout from a top down perspective.

A lot of the map travels between the inside and outside, so you cannot see everything here. In the top right is the healthboost, and around the top left is one of the green armours. The YA is under about where my crosshair is on that screenshot, and the quad a bit to the left of it, inside a structure. What we can see here is that items are generally pretty well spread out from eachother.

What makes this such a strong layout for competitive 2v2? You're not limited by where you can go in relation to another part of the map. Take these screenshots for example.




There are so many ways you can move around from this one spot. Trying to run from a stacked guy who just got HB? There are 3 levels you can drop down to, and he won't have a sightline on which of the 3 you picked. Then once you drop down, there are just as many paths you can split off to; you can go to the center of the map over to the YA or even wrap around back to where the HB was; you can go into a corner and pick up MG and try to trap him; you can retreat backwards below onto green armour. It's not just that you can move around to so many places, but that each place has a purpose and leads somewhere meaningful (or that would be meaningful with pickups moved around).
I'm not a fan of the quad placement though. It's inside a place that's hard to get to, with only two ways in and out, one of which requires rocket/grenade jumping in, and the other is easily defendable by the team that gets there first.




I would've preferred placing the quad either where the HB is, or here as gorge has it.



Another viable place for quad is here, which would make it the same kind of clusterfuck as hator's YA, but perhaps interesting regardless.



At least, something should go there. And therein lies the issue with how the pickups are placed: While there's an appropriate number of all weapons, health, and items, it feels like they're almost scattered around the map with a lot of empty space. For instance, here, there are the big 3 weapons near to eachother


And then places like here, where the most easily accessibly adjacent weapons are all the situational ones that won't be especially useful in most types of fights.



I'd largely replace the item pickups before running this in a pool.

I would consider this a strong map. The layout is all there, the texturing is all there. The lighting could use some more work, and items could be moved around, but playing it is fun. As it stands in its current form, it probably wouldn't replace any competitive pool maps, but once improvements are made, it would certainly be stronger than at least 3 of the current pool maps. I'll give it a 7/10 for now.
79
I've been putting off my review of Semiramus because it's absolutely daunting. I can only imagine the actual work to create it. Maybe that's Windeckers style? Daunting, intimidating, overwhelming. Think of the face on Alithia. It's like an intimidating all-seeing thing. Besides that, his other creative works have this same scale to them that is just off-putting. The anticipation and curiosity of what lies further.

This really is that. A huge looming structure overlooks the playable area. It really makes you wonder what's beyond the blocked doors. And although it is set in a cheery beach-side looking resort, it still has this eerieness to it. Making you question things yet again.

It is the very deliberate and also maybe creative interpretation of the rules that had Windecker creating a huge back drop to a map that is not small on its own, but certainly wouldn't feel right without it. Lets take a look.











But hey! Don't get lost on the size. While at first, it may seem perfect, there are still errors. Kind of a lot. Im sure Razgriz will find more, but here are the few I found.

Wrong texture shade used here



and here



and maybe here. I cant tell. If it was on purpose then it doesn't look right.



Also a little missing block here



Lastly, the most obvious and probably infuriating for Windecker, is this misplaced waterfall  ;D





All could be fixed within 5 minutes. Nothing major really.

I'd like to say that I find many of the ceilings to be a bit boring. It's a ceiling so I guess who really cares.





It seems I have to have a little nitpick on every map.

Another complement on the theme is that there is just enough blending to show some age. A little moss buildup on what might be considered the less-traveled areas.



However, this segways me into another peeve of mine similar to correctly rotated wood grain textures. While the moss blending shows some weathering, the map otherwise has perfectly kept architecture. EXCEPT in one spot and that's my issue.



Here it is next to the Health boost. It acts as an access point or escape route for the HB. I've never been a fan of adding damage to a map out of necessity to change the layout. It's like "Oops, this room needs another escape route but I can't do that without a complete redesign of the facing room. Let me just blow a giant hole in the wall here so I don't have to explain the horrible flow.". It's a bit of a Deus Ex Machina and it ruins the immersion. If there were other areas of crumbling brick and rotted wood it would make a little more sense. Consistency is important. I have the same feeling about this random plank.



Two other small things that probably aren't such a big deal is that I am not really happy with this jumppad in the middle of the hallway



Redesigning that would take a bit of thinking. The other side is perfect.

And also I can't help but wish there was a pickup of some sort on top of this platform here.



There are a lot of nice little details. I love the vcolor fades, they are a nice touch. Even on the large-scale items in the backdrop, there is just enough detail to make it look finished and not just like scenery.

The map is fun to play. Not really sure what mode it will lend itself to best at the moment. I don't see any competitive play on this, but that's not a bad thing. I think the majority will love the way it plays and I don't see why it won't be included in regular rotations.

Sorry for all the pictures on that one. There is a lot to show.

Windecker went for the wow factor. It has attention to detail but once again the time limit of the competition definitely showed its effects. It's a fun theme with fun gameplay.

With this being my final review I have updated the original post with my numerical scoring of the maps.
80
Hi there! :)
I'll also give my five cents regarding cliffside.
Other map reviews will follow.

Cliffside By LURKing

This map has almost everything a deathmatch or ctf map needs. That is some really good Sauerbraten release material here.
I decided to split the review into 4 parts

  • Design & Geometry
  • Immersion
  • Gameplay
  • Lighting & Sound

Design & Geometry

One thing I want to point out up front: For a month worth of level design for this competition, the map really looks well designed and balanced. And taking into account you have made one map for ~3 weeks and then decided to work on an entirely new map is pretty astounding.

One thing that definitely was done right on this map was the blendmap. Thumbs up for that!

There are however a few details that would have been nice. That would make this a memorable map. I think given the deadline you have made the best effort to make sure the details that went into the map are highly visible and well placed.
Except for one thing. It is almost a shame that the thing that really stands out on the map is so well hidden - and that is the inside of the chapel/church building.


The church is unfortunately a dead end (with a purpose, more to that later), so you don't end up there naturally, only to take a risk to grab the healthboost. Other than that, it is a really well designed place.

In any map, I look for a specific landmark that intuitively makes my subconscious know: "ah, here is where I am". I just noticed that the churches look different, so that is a good way to differentiate bases besides color.
While every building is correctly marked in the team color, red and blue, and the flags also show you which way the enemy is, I feel that something is missing.

Immersion

I feel like I'm in greece. That part is well made!

The environment around the playable map would have been the perfect place to remind the player where they are.
Maybe a little temple on the top of the mountain or a summit cross would have helped to make one of the sides (red/blue) really stand out.
Or a tiny fishers house at the beach, a boat in the distance (like Windecker did with Semiramus)
But there is one thing that I really like of this map: Nobody has done a greek style map before, at least not in that outstanding quality!

For a theme like that, a tiny bit more verticality would have helped to make it more interesting, as it is known for the typical greek islands. At least there are the roofs.
Overall you have done a good job on making it good looking.
There are other places that could have needed details as well. The rooms are all looking really bland. Maybe paintings, plants or bookshelves would give it a bit more diversity. Compared to the very detailed map you made previously (the office), it feels like these rooms were given the least love.


One last thing regarding the beach: Maybe a fishing place or a storage depot would give the map a bit more diversity compared to the purely stone buildings.
There is one negative thing that is making my heart as level designer bleed. Something that would have been an easy fix: The suddenly cut off ocean.
Making a bigger map that fades into the fog is a no brainer. You get these awful cutoffs and graphics bugs with Sauerbraten otherwise:



Gameplay

The first thing I did, when I was loading the map, was to explore the beach. Dang - I'm dead. There is nothing much that points out that the beach is a no-no for players. Making it a bit deeper would have shown the player that he could die from depth. Otherwise the little place where you can stand barely makes sense.
I would probably have made it dent out or give a little pillar to stand on to place another hard to reach goodie. Something like this:


Or this to help the flow of the map.


Like any good CTF map, it offers different paths that allow for a quick grab (middle lane), sneaky stealth path (bottom lane) and a mix of both with the top lane.
With some of the goodies being on the roofs, you have given a good balance between too open (dangerous for the player) and bonus for taking the risk.
Other very good examples of that balance can be found with the healthboosts as part of a dead end (if somebody sneaks up, you could have trouble getting out again). Or with the quaddamage being hard to reach, giving other players enough time to stop you. But once you are up there, you have an open space to hit almost anything that moves on that map. I couldn't come up with a better place for the quad than that!

I really like the fountain that you even gave a purpose: they provide health.
There are little windows that you placed grenades in front of, that intuitively give the player an idea: "hey, I can spam grenades in there to stop the enemy" I like that thinking!
Sniper rifles go on roofs - that is also a good choice
All the other pickups are fine. There is enough health.
The windows feel too little sometimes. Maybe a door would be better for entry nearby the flag.

Lighting & Sound

It is quick and dirty but it works.
In my opinion, the light inside the houses could be a bit more warm (orange/red).
Original:
My change:

All the lights except for the church are set to maximum white (255, 255, 255). Which makes it look a bit artificial (given that it is a modern map, it is almost okay)
But that rusty warm look would give these rooms a bit more

I am a bit disappointed by the glass lamps inside the buildings. Considering that even though the map looks pretty medieval or old, there are park benches that give it a modern touch. So it almost justifies the modern lamps. But they still look odd, with no real light source visible in the middle



Summary
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I'll post a ranking of my favorite maps once I'm done rating all maps.

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