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Aerowalk for Sauerbraten!

Rastavi

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Aerowalk for Sauerbraten!
« on: January 21, 2015, 02:58:13 pm »
Hello friendly friends!

Today I present the first version of the map I've been working on for some time: a Sauerbraten clone of the superpopular Quake map Aerowalk. Check out this video for a match on Aerowalk in Quake Live:

First some screenshots:






The theme, textures and lighting are still very likely to change. I just made it this way to make everything nicely visible and playable. Any ideas for that are welcome :)

Those who know the original Aerowalk will notice that the layout is actually different: I added some walkways and made everything bigger and spacier, because the original was too tight for the Sauer gameplay.

Also the main mode this map is aimed for is FFA, even though I know about it's low popularity :) Effic and insta are totally doable on this map too though, the gameplay is just a little bit slower and more tactical than on turbine :P
The map has got both healthboost and quaddamage, and a special feature that I think is quite interesting: pushers. Pushers are basically horizonal jumppads that shoot you through long walkways. Please try them out and tell me what you think.
Waypoints are included, so you can humiliate bots to your liking.
There are also hold bases: 1v1 or 2v2 hold on this map is quite fun I think.

I would really appreciate advice on the layout and the item placement, any (constructive) criticism is welcome!

Viper
« Last Edit: January 21, 2015, 03:00:44 pm by Viper »

swatllama

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Re: Aerowalk for Sauerbraten!
« Reply #1 on: January 21, 2015, 09:24:33 pm »
I remember watching you work on this a bit.

Hm... it's super cool that you went away from quake with this and Sauer-sized it. You got the proportions spot on, they're perfect for sauer. It's just that... gah, I love the original version a lot. Obvoiusly some changes needed to happen to Sauerize it, and you did a good job with some of those, but it doesn't feel like aerowalk at all. The core part of aerowalk's still there, but the details make it feel like a different map.

It'll be interesting to play this, I'll let you know how it plays once I can find a partner.

Rastavi

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Re: Aerowalk for Sauerbraten!
« Reply #2 on: January 22, 2015, 12:43:37 pm »
The next version will most likely feel more like the original. It's gonna get a roof, and also maybe the bluish atmosphere back. So don't worry :)  And great that you like the proportions, me gusta.

Fatality

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Re: Aerowalk for Sauerbraten!
« Reply #3 on: January 22, 2015, 02:03:51 pm »
I am really impressed with this map. I don't play quake a lot, so I'm not familiar with the layout, but judging just on this map alone the layout and flow is great. A layout is the biggest thing every mapper struggles with, and whether or not you remade this from another map, it is a great layout for a Sauer map imo.

A few things:
The healthboost and the health next to the yellow armour are not accessible without a trickjump. This may be okay for the healthboost, even though I'm not a fan, but for the health you should put a box or something in front of the platform so you can jump up nicely, it would also work with the yellow armour, eliminating the need for a trickjump there too.

About the yellow armour, try clipping it's platform thing, the little slant sometimes hits you unexpectedly when you land on it and you don't land solidly.

Some roofs were left un-clipped. Not sure if this was intentional or not but it creates some inconsistency and confusion, some roofs are clipped, some are not. It is up to you what to do with them, but I suggest clipping them all.

The floor could use some better clipping/noclipping. The thick trims can be no-clipped and there's a spot under one of the green armours that can use some clip.

From that same green armour, there is really no way up to the above area without using the launchpad, it'd be nice to have a little ledge or something that lets you jump up that way. Also that launchpad could be a little stronger, I sometimes missed the platform when launching up there.

The texturing could definitely use some work, but it is a good start. Also the geometry could use some more attention, as well as details. If you have some free time some time I'd love to give you a hand in game with this :)

Item placement is not really my area of expertise, but to me the item placement looks great. The only thing I don't like is the two green armours for a small 1v1 map, especially since they are almost on top of each other and very close. Also if you haven't noticed, I'm not a fan of items that require a trickjump to get, so the quad bugs me :P but that is just my opinion, others might like it.

I love the launchpads, awesome idea! When I read the description I assumed they were just in the middle of the floor of the halls and you'd just be automatically pushed through it, but since they are on the wall and you have to jump up to them they are just really nice. Nice original idea.

This is now only the second map that has made me want to actually play FFA (stahlbox being the first). Good job so far man
« Last Edit: January 22, 2015, 02:06:14 pm by Fatality »

Rastavi

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Re: Aerowalk for Sauerbraten!
« Reply #4 on: January 22, 2015, 02:50:49 pm »
Thank you so much for your positiveness and feedback man, really made my day :D

About the yellow armour and the inaccesible health: you can actually jump on the yellow armour platform without using weapons (but it's hard, just like it was in quake):

And from that platform you can easily reach the health. But you're right that if you need health, there's usually not enough time to do a lot of difficult jumps, so I'll think about it. The slant on the platform is actually necessary to be able to jump on it without using trickjumps. Getting the yellow armour takes some work in this map :)

About the trickjumps to healthboost and quaddamage: I personally think that getting to either one of 'em should take some work, because they're so much more powerful than the other items. Especially the healthboost is even worth dying for, because you'll have the extra health for the rest of the match. So I think I'll leave it this way :)

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Some roofs were left un-clipped. Not sure if this was intentional or not but it creates some inconsistency and confusion, some roofs are clipped, some are not. It is up to you what to do with them, but I suggest clipping them all.
Quote
The texturing could definitely use some work, but it is a good start. Also the geometry could use some more attention, as well as details. If you have some free time some time I'd love to give you a hand in game with this :)
The clipped roofs are indeed a problem, more people mentioned that. I'm not entirely sure yet, but I think I'm gonna add a roof, together with some other big theme/texture changes. Right now it's not realistic, it doesn't look like anything imo :D

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The floor could use some better clipping/noclipping. The thick trims can be no-clipped and there's a spot under one of the green armours that can use some clip.
Yep, will do.

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From that same green armour, there is really no way up to the above area without using the launchpad, it'd be nice to have a little ledge or something that lets you jump up that way. Also that launchpad could be a little stronger, I sometimes missed the platform when launching up there.
Good idea! Although forcing people to use the launchpad is maybe a good idea too. Will think about it.

About the green armours: you might be right. Will have to do some more playtesting other than against bots :D

Nice that you like the launchpads (better word than pusher ;) )

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This is now only the second map that has made me want to actually play FFA (stahlbox being the first). Good job so far man
Bam! Thanks you so much! Let's start an FFA cult :)

swatllama

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Re: Aerowalk for Sauerbraten!
« Reply #5 on: January 23, 2015, 02:04:33 am »
Degrave and I just played a game. V1per, you should probably watch the attached demo, from both our perspectives. It'll show quite clearly some of the things which we probably liked, and some of the annoyances.

First of all, it actually does seem to fit sauer better than I thought. While I'd have loved a direct remake (with proportion modifications) cause I'm a diehard aerowalk fan, this is very playable, and was quite enjoyable.

Things that I don't like:

- The horizontally displacing jumppads are really annoying. I didn't even notice them deliberately, I just came across them by accident.

- There are two MG. That's alright for a map this size, but I don't really like the positioning of the one by the jumppad by the YA. It's not a spot I really go to in either quake or sauer. It's not convienent, and it's a little dangerous imho, most of time. I'm not really sure where to move that one. Some of the other pickups seemed a little oddly placed. Maybe it'd help if we and Nyamms could go over it sometime soon and rearrange the pickups as necessary.

- From the center pit, even with the platforms, it's a little toughish to get up, and not a way I really used if I could avoid it. It's not safe from attacks either, and there's a risk of falling. I don't know if this is something which can be fixed; I'm not sure how you would, anyway.

- The lighting's funky. In some area's it's plain, but in other areas it's a very strong red, blue, green... I'm not saying to go for original aerowalk lighting; that wouldn't fit, but pick something and have it consistent throughout. Have those reds and oranges by the shotgun be smaller lights and less powerful and overwhelming. The green's by the armor could be split into two much smaller lights just by the green armors. When degrave was near them, it was sometimes tough to see his exact position cause of the lights closely matching my ironsnout skin colors, and them being so strong.

- I'd like if you'd extend the YA's little window-floor thing back a ways, like in the original one. Might make shooting it with rockets from underneath easier too.

Things I liked:
- The layout's working fairly well. It's easy enough to restack.

- Keep the two GA's. It's really helpful in a map like this.

- Well positioned HB and quad. Quad's a little tough to access from one side, but it's doable. Don't make it less difficult to access, it's nice the way it is.

- Keep the YA the way it is. It's possible to access without a trick jump, just difficult.

- Keep the HB the way it is. I found a lot of the time that Degrave sometimes would wound me enough so that I couldn't rocket jump over, and he could get it. This is a very smart strategy he did, whether he meant to do it or not.

- Like in the original, it actually is possible to restack like what Cypher did vs cooller. NOt that I can do it that well in any game :D That'd be the day, but it's possible here, yes.
« Last Edit: January 23, 2015, 02:10:29 am by swatllama »

Rastavi

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Re: Aerowalk for Sauerbraten!
« Reply #6 on: January 23, 2015, 10:52:20 am »
Wow, that demo was epic to watch! You nailed degrave pretty hard :)
The biggest problem was imo that degrave fell down so many times. The pit is indeed too risky. That's gonna be fixed though: I've got a great idea for a totally different theme, in which the pit will most likely become a swimming pool :)
That will also fix the disco lighting and the previously mentioned clipping problems.

Why don't you like the lauchpads? :( I was so proud of them. But I do agree that they are less suitable for ffa, because then you need to move more cautiously. But that's why I didn't force people to use them. I think in effic/insta they are more useful. Matter of taste :)

I only put 2 MG and 2 rockets to prevent effic-like gameplay, but I might have overbalanced it now. Maybe I could switch that MG with the rifle close to the yellow armour, and then switch the rifle with the closeby rocket. But an item balancing session with you and nyamms would be great as soon as I've got the new version of the map out :)

Thanks a bunch for the feedback!

savanha

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Re: Aerowalk for Sauerbraten!
« Reply #7 on: January 23, 2015, 03:44:43 pm »
Interesting map with great potential and  original layout for a sauer map my first suggestion though is to rename it , since it's far from the original “aerowalk” .

Probably you are aware of this yet but let's just say for those who don't know it :

Two attempts to remake “aerowalk” were  posted on quadropolis in 2010 / 2011 and they  had a result way closer to the original ,speaking about the layout . 
Here are the links :
- Aerowalk by foldl : http://quadropolis.us/node/2390
- Aerowalk by Soja and Razor : http://quadropolis.us/node/3039

I think foldl's attempt was the more remarkable although after the download I modified it a bit ( removed all mapmodels and  particles since they were causing fps drops, added quaddamage and
modifed the teleports to make them more intuitive ).
Here's is my modified version if anyone cares : https://mega.co.nz/#!6Rog2BaA!iLNeCmo_2Ok_meUQRUTEU8UqwF0MOjy_cq3YNrn7Nuk    ).

You may say they are both too narrow for sauer's gameplay but , although I admit I never played quake, isnt' quake's gameplay very similar to sauer's in terms of speed ? Also mind that given such a labyrinthic layout fragging becomes harder since the target is less visible , but because of the smaller size it's easier to hit it  , thus more fun ( it's easier to hit into the tunnel in dust2 then in any else open field ) .
What I'm trying to say is that we don't need to adapt the map to sauer's gameplay but the opposite : It's us who shall adapt to play in narrow spaces ( best  maps for ffa 1v1 in my opinion : aard3c , metl3 , metl2 , oddworld , sweetmp7 and of course fixed foldl's remake of aerowalk , all of them very narrow  )  . By the way I play with fov 100.

This said ,sorry for the digression , I strongly suggest you to think at this map as a brand new map without focusing anymore in making it closer to “aerowalk “ . The layout is solid and I think it just need some more work on the geometry to make it look prettier . About the lighting keep in mind that a bad one can ruin even the map with best layout . The main “bad aspects” have been pointed out yet , keep up the good work , I'm looking forward to see the next version .

P.S. : If you are willing to play it 2v2 ( especially for hold ) consider to enlarge it a bit , skrdm1 could be good map to look at if you go down that road.

Rastavi

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Re: Aerowalk for Sauerbraten!
« Reply #8 on: January 23, 2015, 06:04:30 pm »
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Interesting map with great potential and  original layout for a sauer map my first suggestion though is to rename it , since it's far from the original “aerowalk” .
Yeah, I think you're right. The first versions I made were quite close to the original, so I decided to name it aerowalk, but then the design started moving away a bit. Time to think of an original name!

Thanks for the links, I didn't know there were already 3 attempts (but the third one that you didn't mention is not reachable anymore). I also looked at your version, and compared it to the Quake Live version and my own. And believe it or not, the proportions of my map are closer to the original than the other ones :) It's just the part that I added that removes the aerowalkness.
The Quake and Sauer normal walking speeds are indeed about equal, but in Sauer everybody jumps all the time. In Quake it takes some difficult strafe jumps, so the average movement speed in Sauer is definitely higher.

I guess the fact that you like narrow spaces is personal: I really hate it. It is painful to hit your head all the time in metl3! :)  But like I mentioned before: for FFA narrow spaces are less of a problem I think. It's just that effic is so popular :/

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This said ,sorry for the digression , I strongly suggest you to think at this map as a brand new map without focusing anymore in making it closer to “aerowalk “ .
Yeah, at first I wanted to stay more or less close to the original, and the new version might play a little more like that (with a roof and so on), but theme-wise it's gonna be totally original.

I don't want it to be for 2v2. Maybe 1v1 hold is interesting too? Also, I tested 2v2 instateam, and it was quite fun. Effic or FFA won't be possible though.

swatllama

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Re: Aerowalk for Sauerbraten!
« Reply #9 on: January 23, 2015, 07:27:31 pm »
Quake's default walking speed is much slower than Sauerbraten's. It does take a few strafe jumps to get up to speed in quake, and it's not quite as easy to do on aerowalk there, since it is very tight.

With your renaming, make sure to keep the "walk" in it at least. Fatum did that with ttumwalk, which clearly has inspiration from aerowalk.

The one you showed me, Savanha, is tighter than the quake ones.
We have to change the proportions from the quake ones, because:
Sauer has a faster pace.
Sauer rockets have a very large blast radius, and the blast damage drops off linearly. Quake's is inverse, or inverse^2 or something.
Whether or not they have to be as expanded as V1per's, that's up to opinion.

With your remake, Viper, it didn't feel quite like aerowalk, but you're not going for that anymore anyway, so that doesn't matter. It can be a fast map or a slow map, but I think it's easier to play yours slowly.

Savanha, yours or whomever elses do play very fast. 54's a very high score for an ffa duel, Yours felt a  lot more intense than V1per's because of the size, and the layout. I still think yours have to be expanded.

V1per, your map could be played for 2v2, mostly because of the two GA's, but it might be tight. I'll try to do some more testing on both your renditions as I have time.

Vanquish

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Re: Aerowalk for Sauerbraten!
« Reply #10 on: January 31, 2015, 11:59:51 am »
I don't really think naming matters that much, does it? The same map (aerowalk in ql) was also called hub (q1/q2) and cpm22 (q3 cpma), you could even name it "sauerwalk" or something and I don't think people would really care that much.
I probably wouldn't have guessed that this was aerowalk if you didn't put it in the thread title (just judging by screenshots, I mean). Not saying that this is a bad thing though, just that it might be an argument for giving yourself a bit more freedom with your choice of map name.

Anyway, I think it's awesome that you remade this map in sauer, would love to play it sometime. Just quickly downloaded it and ran around in singleplayer, I feel like the proportions are pretty spot on considering what swatllama said about the differing player speeds between quake and sauer. Now all we need is a ztn remake >:D

Suicizer

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Re: Aerowalk for Sauerbraten!
« Reply #11 on: February 07, 2015, 07:28:31 pm »
Savanha forgot this version of Aerowalk (the eldest actually).

http://quadropolis.us/node/1333
« Last Edit: February 08, 2015, 06:09:47 pm by Suicizer »

savanha

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Re: Aerowalk for Sauerbraten!
« Reply #12 on: February 08, 2015, 03:58:47 pm »
I actually know that map and it's quite a fun map . Despite that though as it's also stated in the description on the quadropoli's node it is just inspired by the original "aerowalk" indeed its layout is way different .
With my post I was aiming to demonstrate that a remake of "aerowalk" for sauer was actually possible without doing any change to the original layout (only needs to adapt the proportions ) , that's why I didn't even think to add that map (sweetmp7) to my post .