Sauerworld Forum

Sauerbraten Content => Maps => Topic started by: savanha on September 20, 2014, 03:52:05 PM

Title: Croma
Post by: savanha on September 20, 2014, 03:52:05 PM
Oe ! Here it is ! Another map which aims to get into the map-pool for clan wars .

This isn't quadropolis so I'm not expecting troubles for the lack of details :S but pls don't hold your critics !
Its geometry is simple with only some trimming as details but I've focused a lot on the layout , looking at Forge as reference .
Many thanks to Luffy and Pix for the support and to all who will test it with/without me and give feedback.

Download it here : https://mega.co.nz/#!vRoSmQLL!lNfzRERN1bNpFrhn_p_YdnHoqlQpPBzGoRLJ0ayHUQo

regards ,

2+2=3 / savanha

UPD: links to download the map don't work anymore. I hope I attached the latest version of the map. The archive also contains "croma6.ogz", not sure about this version, feel free to check it.
Title: Re: Croma
Post by: frosty on September 20, 2014, 09:19:11 PM
not a bad effort, but i find that the map is still incomplete, i find some parts inconsistent with stairs or ramps, and a lot of edges are missing trim. also i find that the floors and the wall look very much the same color making it very dull and boring. also if your going to name it croma you might want to make the textures chromatic  :P. of course i cant test it gameplay wise because its a new map, but im not a fan of the jumppad, it makes it too easy to simply charge down the middle of the map in a straight line, people wont use the outer paths at all because they are harder to access, never mind slower... again not bad but i think there is a lot that needs to be changed before it can be considered if you wish to have it included in a map pool or even in the release (if there is one)
Title: Re: Croma
Post by: savanha on September 24, 2014, 05:03:41 PM
I did some changes , and updated the link , here some screenshots
Title: Re: Croma
Post by: Fatality on September 25, 2014, 03:58:21 AM
Changing the red and blue to the orange/yellow was a good choice, it looks awesome. There are still just some small flow issues, but that's just me being a perfectionist. The lighting also could be a lot better, but I already told you this ;). I would be more than happy to help with that, or even do it for you. Nice map! :P

Edit: Why not try some fog to enhance the atmosphere a bit? I just added a simple /fog 1000 and /fogcolour 100 100 100, and it already looked nicer, but you could play around with the color and w/e.
Title: Re: Croma
Post by: savanha on September 25, 2014, 06:05:23 PM
Pix realized a short presentation movie check it out !



Amazing job Mate , many thanks from the deep of my heart !

Also thanks to those who played it ! Really appreciated !

Title: Re: Croma
Post by: Joran on September 25, 2014, 06:09:28 PM
Great map!  8)  Even better with the orange colors.
Title: Re: Croma
Post by: Fear on September 25, 2014, 07:00:06 PM
I played it yesterday and it was fun. I especially like the colors of the map.
I already told you which things you can improve ;)
Anyway for Efficctf this map can become really popular, but i doubt it can become that popular for Instactf.  :)
Alltogether awesome work! Keep working on it! ;)
Title: Re: Croma
Post by: Doko on September 27, 2014, 03:33:39 AM
The layout is not bad, but part of the layout have to be intended to an aesthetic aspect, the layout doesnt have to be just playable, it also has to be sightly. Forge for example is an ugly map for my taste, very playable, but aesthetically is okay, the textures are a bit spamed, but the layout is consistent, the space used in every part of the map is calculated, is something wich i dont find in this map, where there are some small parts, and other big. The hole in the middle does not work for any purpose, nobody is going to go there, there is nothing really important, or strategic in that hole, the only thing you can do is to change to the other side of the map, that is completly unnecesary, considering that you will run more distance that you want, also, i played in this map some days ago, and i didnt liked that hole; it was annoying when i was going to the middle.
The boxes are the resource when a mapper dont have any ideas, there are other things that you can make instead of boxes, like terrain, or just more layout, the boxes in the bases can be replaced for some layout, some proper ladders, adjusting them with the entrance that is near of it.
in general the gameplay of this map is very nice, but not for insta CTF, the corridors are a bit long and also some parts are open, it is a very good map for effic CTF, it gives the enough space for combat and for recovering the flag, but in the appearance  it lacks of details, and has very few textures.
The map is playable, but not nice in the appearance.
Title: Re: Croma
Post by: savanha on September 27, 2014, 11:00:45 AM
Thanks for the feedback but as I've stated before and also written in the readme I'm not interested in adding more details so please don't suggest that . The appearence is subjective and I like it as it is, furthermore I'm not even that good as editor to bother my self trying to sadisfie other's addiction to details . None smart enough , play this game for the graphic , conversely many players even  use texreduce , this map is meant for them . I already did what i could with my low editing skills . Remember that this map is born from the exigence of having a larger number of maps for mixed games and clan wars to chose from which means less worries for the appearence and more for the layout .
About the middle please consider that the map can be played on every modes not only ictf / ectf .
And I please someone to explain me how a  map can be good for ectf but not for ictf ? In my experience I thought it was the opposite ( e.g. : face-capture , capture_night ) .

The next things im going to change are the lightning ( thanks for the offer fatality :) ) and some playerstarts .
Title: Re: Croma
Post by: Doko on September 27, 2014, 05:54:39 PM
Thanks for the feedback but as I've stated before and also written in the readme I'm not interested in adding more details so please don't suggest that . The appearence is subjective and I like it as it is, furthermore I'm not even that good as editor to bother my self trying to sadisfie other's addiction to details . None smart enough , play this game for the graphic , conversely many players even  use texreduce , this map is meant for them . I already did what i could with my low editing skills . Remember that this map is born from the exigence of having a larger number of maps for mixed games and clan wars to chose from which means less worries for the appearence and more for the layout .
About the middle please consider that the map can be played on every modes not only ictf / ectf .
And I please someone to explain me how a  map can be good for ectf but not for ictf ? In my experience I thought it was the opposite ( e.g. : face-capture , capture_night ) .

The next things im going to change are the lightning ( thanks for the offer fatality :) ) and some playerstarts .

There is not impediment to play this map in instactf, but the gameplay would be harder, you die in one shot, and you have to get the flag and escape with it like an easy target through corridors and open spaces, thats why i said its not for insta ctf. But obiously you can play all the maps in instactf, but the gameplay would be annoying if you play in face-capture, for example.
The hole in the middle is just an opinion, i find it unnecessary and annoying, maybe someone find it very useful, i just played it two times and i cant ensure that im right.
And finally i have to say that i just mentioned the details, you dont need to convert the map to something beautiful, like tempest or alloy, but you have to balance the two aspects, forge for example is not detailed, its just have flat textures, no details to make it more deep, just in some part, where is necessary, there is deep, in some walls, or on the floor, the textures do all the details work. You can just get someone experienced to add small details and textures to your map, in quadropolis there are some, but of course, if youre interested.
Title: Re: Croma
Post by: Suicizer on December 07, 2014, 06:08:16 PM
Seems like a fresh and clean map to me.

Interesting that the lightprecision and lightlod is even specified in it's cfg-file (as that's only necessary just before calclighting). I'll consider it as being ambitious.

The lighting seems properly done; there's just enough contrast. Of course the moon within the skybox could have been used a bit more as a lightsource to make it more realistic; but who cares? It's a fast paced map anyway.

The flow seems good, although there could have been spend more time in the clipping (as like for certain trimmings like near the teleport on each base, etc) but it works...

Personally; I like to see some more details even in such themed map (as that's quite possible also). But I understand you're not a fan of that, so great map! Would like to see some more of your work soon!

Title: Re: Croma
Post by: savanha on December 18, 2014, 06:07:44 PM
I kept working on it and I came out with the decision of reducing the spaces where the map was too open . I did also some changes to the gameplay , all meant to balance the speed of the  routes . Fixed spawns , lightning and added 2 more colours for those who lost them-selves.
As major change i cut off a section which took too much time and solved the problem with a teleport , I think you'll find it extremely usefull and very tactical .

Here is the download :

https://mega.co.nz/#!vRoSmQLL!lNfzRERN1bNpFrhn_p_YdnHoqlQpPBzGoRLJ0ayHUQo
Title: Re: Croma
Post by: savanha on February 21, 2015, 02:26:25 PM
I'm uploading a new version of croma (croma.V1), hopefully the definitive one , unless some issues concerning gameplay will be reported .
The changes done are mainly about the appearance , but I also removed a couple of spawns , oh and I fixed the teleports they all keep the momentum now .
Well I think it's all , again thanks to everyone who played the test versions with me . As always , have fun .

Link for the download right here below .
Title: Re: Croma
Post by: Suicizer on February 21, 2015, 09:23:20 PM
Some small input towards the teleports; make them recognisable. You the in- and outcome of a teleport is currently identical while you can only use the teleport from 1 side.
It is also quite odd that you spawn just in front a teleport when taking the teleport at the right side of the base. But when taking that teleport which you've spawn nearby; you appear close to the base. Feels pretty awkward.

One of the teleports of the red base has no lights.

The clipping could still be improved.

Bots can't take the YA (although the map is still lacking waypoints; they would never be able to get it in the first place).

There's some dead end (with no proper reason?) near base 3 and 4.

The flow of the map feels "just not right". I often see situations which look like you would make it with a simple jump; but you actually don't (like jumping from base 3 or 4 towards that higher platform). There are quite some more of such examples, so perhaps you should really consider to run around with people who don't  know the map quite yet.
 
Next to that; I really like the atmosphere and the theme of the map. Good job!
Title: Re: Croma
Post by: savanha on February 22, 2015, 01:33:04 PM
Some small input towards the teleports; make them recognisable. You the in- and outcome of a teleport is currently identical while you can only use the teleport from 1 side.
I always read this comment …
Shall I use the usual over-used rotating map model ? Shall I write above all the teleports “TELEPORT HERE“ ? After one quick run around the map you'll find them all and understand how they work .

One of the teleports of the red base has no lights.

? not sure what you mean with that , I've seeked for the missing ent but couldn't spot any difference between red and blue side , I even tried /clearents lights but the number was even (124) .

It is also quite odd that you spawn just in front a teleport when taking the teleport at the right side of the base. But when taking that teleport which you've spawn nearby; you appear close to the base. Feels pretty awkward.

That's the opposite , feels pretty useful : you spawn outside the base , but if it needs to be cleared from enemies you can just take the teleport close to you and defend it .

The clipping could still be improved.

Any more precise examples ?


Bots can't take the YA (although the map is still lacking waypoints; they would never be able to get it in the first place).
 
Playing wiht bots it's super-lame for many obvious reasons ( reatard and predictable movements combined wiht insane aim and wallhack). That's why I didn't add the .wpt file and I'm not going to ( sry guys with bad connection , play other games , sauer is worth it to be played multiplayer online only). Please smart comments only , I'm not gonna move the YA so that stupid bots can take it..


There's some dead end (with no proper reason?) near base 3 and 4.

 That's not a dead end , aside from the fact that you can see very well the wall from a long distance ( if you run into it it's your fault , walls are usually made of concrete don't run into them you might hurt your-self !) that wall is there for a reason , it provides cover for the base in capture modes also it offers a direct and safe sight on the small short corridor on the other side so that you have the chance to shoot the flagholder despite being some steps behind when chasing him ( I took the idea from reissen's camping spot , the one right above the small tunnel toward the jumppad below the base).


The flow of the map feels "just not right". I often see situations which look like you would make it with a simple jump; but you actually don't (like jumping from base 3 or 4 towards that higher platform). There are quite some more of such examples, so perhaps you should really consider to run around with people who don't  know the map quite yet.
That jump is actually possible without weapons of course .. so another lie ( it's pretty frustrating to ear these bullshits , especially from someone who consider him-self a pro player/editor) ,  despite that it's a pretty non-sense jump anyway. And where else are examples of bad flow ? Just there ? Does just one hard yet useless jump make it a map with “Just not right”  flow ?
 

Next to that; I really like the atmosphere and the theme of the map. Good job!
Many thanks .
Title: Re: Croma
Post by: Suicizer on February 22, 2015, 01:52:27 PM
I always read this comment …
Shall I use the usual over-used rotating map model ? Shall I write above all the teleports “TELEPORT HERE“ ? After one quick run around the map you'll find them all and understand how they work .

Having a different colour than blue or red (like purple) for the particles would do the job perfectly to show of it's an exit only; not an entrance.

? not sure what you mean with that , I've seeked for the missing ent but couldn't spot any difference between red and blue side , I even tried /clearents lights but the number was even (124) .

(http://i61.tinypic.com/2hq6lhh.png)

There are plenty of light-sources at the teleport; yet no lights. That's what I mean.

Any more precise examples ?

You should be able to find such things for yourself if you're actually taking feedback for granted but ok; I'll post the screenshot to help.

(http://i61.tinypic.com/ogf52b.png)

(http://i61.tinypic.com/2uxu2dz.png)

 
Playing wiht bots it's super-lame for many obvious reasons ( reatard and predictable movements combined wiht insane aim and wallhack). That's why I didn't add the .wpt file and I'm not going to ( sry guys with bad connection , play other games , sauer is worth it to be played multiplayer online only). Please smart comments only , I'm not gonna move the YA so that stupid bots can take it..
Despite your opinion, bots shouldn't be avoided as they are part of the gameplay of Sauerbraten. I don't care if you don't add waypoints, but just add them any way. It's not that tough job to do so in the first place.

 
 That's not a dead end , aside from the fact that you can see very well the wall from a long distance ( if you run into it it's your fault , walls are usually made of concrete don't run into them you might hurt your-self !) that wall is there for a reason , it provides cover for the base in capture modes also it offers a direct and safe sight on the small short corridor on the other side so that you have the chance to shoot the flagholder despite being some steps behind when chasing him ( I took the idea from reissen's camping spot , the one right above the small tunnel toward the jumppad below the base).

The one from reissen works quite different as that's a path to the centre; so it's not a dead end.

That jump is actually possible without weapons of course .. so another lie ( it's pretty frustrating to ear these bullshits , especially from someone who consider him-self a pro player/editor) ,  despite that it's a pretty non-sense jump anyway. And where else are examples of bad flow ? Just there ? Does just one hard yet useless jump make it a map with “Just not right”  flow ?

(http://i58.tinypic.com/icvipz.jpg)

In this case; you can certainly jump from the area of the base to the platform at the left. However; it takes a relatively well-timed jump to perform.

(http://i62.tinypic.com/2rhwg37.png)

(http://i61.tinypic.com/jpwy29.png)

(http://i61.tinypic.com/2r2rerb.png)

The flow just doesn't feel great as you're being force to do a specific action while there doesn't feel any reason to do so.
Like those 2 beams which are right over the pathway; what's the point of it?

In the 2nd screenshot; the hole on the right feels like you would be able to make it with a nice jump, but you are actually force to do a riflejump for it.

In the 3th screenshot; when players come from the lower curved path on the left and want to get on any higher area; they are forced to make a jump to the right or take the jumppad which feels a struggle to actually take as you first have to hold down your speed to take it or bump against the wall, move backward and then finally take the jumppad.

(http://i61.tinypic.com/2wdwzls.png)

What's the use of the red coloured bar on the left?
It feels like you should be able to get on top of it to earn a tactical advantage, but all it leads to a teleport or the area of a dead end.

The map's pickups are pretty unbalanced; there are 10 rockets spawning on the map, but only 6 shells. There are also only 6 grenades appearing. What about adding 4 more of each shells and grenades?

The playerstarts should be checked also as there are some in it which feel quite awkward.

P.S.
It doesn't matter who makes the feedback. It rather matters how the feedback is received and reacted.
Title: Re: Croma
Post by: savanha on February 22, 2015, 04:33:03 PM
Listen dude you're clearly not smart or experienced enough ( i'm kind and I want to believe the 2nd option ) to understand the reasons of  the choices I operated on the map , I therefore will have to explain them to you in game since I don't want to write a poem here explaining every single choice I made .
Afterwards though I'm expecting your public apologies or retreat ( if you have the ba**s..) for saying these nonsenses and untruths about the map. It gives it unwarranted negative fame .
Title: Re: Croma
Post by: Suicizer on February 22, 2015, 04:43:52 PM
Listen dude you're clearly not smart or experienced enough ( i'm kind and I want to believe the 2nd option ) to understand the reasons of  the choices I operated on the map , I therefore will have to explain them to you in game since I don't want to write a poem here explaining every single choice I made .
Afterwards though I'm expecting your public apologies or retreat ( if you have the ba**s..) for saying these nonsenses and untruths about the map. It gives it unwarranted negative fame .


Look man, I'm not commenting here to mess you up neither your map or any other project which you've participated. The fact is, if you're viewing a map and actually want to provide some feedback which isn't like "map is great! - the end", then you should wonder at every step that has been done. Why is such texturing chosen for that theme? Why are playerstarts putted right there with that specific direction? That should all be done as that's what the mapper also should have done. Most of such questions are obvious, but naturally some aren't. There's a lot to discuss in theming, flow and gameplay as that's quite vague and depending on a certain view.
That's why I'm asking such questions.

Next to that, if you make a map everything might look totally awesome at the start, but you'll notice if you've done projects throughout several years that it's an illusion. If you look back to a project you started a month ago, certain elements might not feel that great anymore as they felt back then. This is something which someone that plays the map for the first pair of times also notices as they didn't start playing the map with the certain feeling as it has been made.

This can be relativised at any project you actually do.

So perhaps you shouldn't insult people who are only there trying to provide some constructive feedback and actually want to help you getting your mapping to a higher level, but consider things which they notice as a given and learn from them.
Title: Re: Croma
Post by: savanha on February 22, 2015, 05:30:20 PM
no no no now you come in-game and I prove you wrong , you'll not get away like this .
Thing that bothers me is that you come here and say things like " bad flow " when it's just 1 jump or simply you didnt get the porpouse of that specific thing , then you say "clipping could be improved " when it's just a stupid tiny hole in the clip totally uneffective on the gameplay.. this way of reviewing of yours is misleading , it seems like the map is still unifinished when those little things you pointed out are just your opinion but you make them look like it's a problem of the map . And as i said there are too many things I have to show you to prove they were the opposite of what you said , so now you come in-game . Or retreat.
Title: Re: Croma
Post by: Suicizer on February 22, 2015, 05:37:07 PM
no no no now you come in-game and I prove you wrong , you'll not get away like this .
Thing that bothers me is that you come here and say things like " bad flow " when it's just 1 jump or simply you didnt get the porpouse of that specific thing , then you say "clipping could be improved " when it's just a stupid tiny hole in the clip totally uneffective on the gameplay.. this way of reviewing of yours is misleading , it seems like the map is still unifinished when those little things you pointed out are just your opinion but you make them look like it's a problem of the map . And as i said there are too many things I have to show you to prove they were the opposite of what you said , so now you come in-game . Or retreat.

Well; I'm currently in-game so I'm actually waiting for you ^^.

We both know that I won't go point at all the mistakes done throughout the whole map. Then I could rather build it myself in that time.
Title: Re: Croma
Post by: savanha on February 22, 2015, 06:45:57 PM
Well , we met in-game but we couldn't settle things . Even in front of the evidence you decided to not retreat . Fine , I disrespect your opinion ( which you obviously made up too hastily ) . The clipping is fine , so is the flow , if you didn't get the porpouse of things is because you're lacking of experience of competitive gameplay . I'm not intersted in the opinion of someone who cannot jump and move properly . I kindly ask you to don't comment furthermore my works . I'm aware of my limits concerning the editing but you seem to be not about yours regarding actual gameplay . With this I close it , I'm not interested in the opinion of a noob. 
Title: Re: Croma
Post by: Suicizer on February 22, 2015, 07:51:41 PM
Well , we met in-game but we couldn't settle things . Even in front of the evidence you decided to not retreat . Fine , I disrespect your opinion ( which you obviously made up too hastily ) . The clipping is fine , so is the flow , if you didn't get the porpouse of things is because you're lacking of experience of competitive gameplay . I'm not intersted in the opinion of someone who cannot jump and move properly . I kindly ask you to don't comment furthermore my works . I'm aware of my limits concerning the editing but you seem to be not about yours regarding actual gameplay . With this I close it , I'm not interested in the opinion of a noob. 

That something is fine doesn't mean it can't be improved. So the clipping can be improved, as well as the gameplay.

We both agreed we should keep each other at distance and respect by not provoking anything like an insult or a comment. Yet you do so which breaks the promise (and so the reason of this comment).
Title: Re: Croma
Post by: frosty on February 23, 2015, 10:23:31 AM
this map looks a lot better than the first time i downloaded it so props to you. however there are a few errors and quite a few bothersome areas for me, perhaps it can be discussed more in depth on a server sometime?
Title: Re: Croma
Post by: savanha on February 23, 2015, 04:06:39 PM
Sure , I'd love to , meet you on IRC
Title: Re: Croma
Post by: savanha on July 18, 2015, 04:04:05 PM
I've seen you played this map on one of the latest tournaments , not sure which version you used since the one posted here was slightlty outdated , anyhow if you used the one frosty had then you played the last version . Anyhow hereby I'm posting the last version attached below.
Title: Re: Croma
Post by: Doko on March 15, 2018, 06:59:09 PM
Dayum, why i didn't saw this fight before?
Title: Re: Croma
Post by: Gangler on September 12, 2018, 09:45:53 AM
great map. :)